Bounties Being Offered!
Ok Community, There has been tons of conversation going on in the Open Letter to Carl and The Community Thread here:
http://rebolforum.com/index.cgi?f=printtopic&topicnumber=44&archiveflag=new
But as I continue to read and reread the post in there making notes as I go along to keep my mind right. I want to kick this effort off with a few initial offers on a few things. I would hope to see community participation on this and hopefully some of the C folks will do the work.
What I'm going to do is post a few items with bounties on them if anybody in the community wants to add to the bounty to raise it up so it becomes more attractive by all means post your intention to pledge. The more the better. I will also monitor the post and raise them myself if I don't get any hits from an interested developer.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:22:54-7:00
@Graham Has suggested that getting a proper console for Rebol3 is an item needing funding.
Kickstarting a Bounty on this Item: Console for Rebol3
Patrick Stewart Pledges opening bounty for $500.00 USD
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:27:36-7:00
@Nick Has suggested that a JS (Emscripten) Port of Rebol3 is an item needing funding.
Kickstarting a Bounty on this Item: JS (Emscripten) Port of Rebol3
Patrick Stewart Pledges opening bounty for $1000.00 USD
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:30:45-7:00
@Peter has suggested that attention to the current backlog of bugs in Rebol3 need to be funded.
Kickstarting a Bounty on this Item: Rectifying Current Backlog for Rebol3
Patrick Stewart Pledges opening bounty for $500.00 USD
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:34:52-7:00
@Hostilefork has suggested that a Rebol/Red unified testing suite for Rebol3 needs to be funded.
Kickstarting a Bounty on this Item: Unified Testing Suite for Rebol3/Red
Patrick Stewart Pledges opening bounty for $250.00 USD
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:40:20-7:00
@Nenad has requested a Mac OSX server for the Red Build Farm.
Kickstarting a Bounty on this Item: OSX Server for Red Build Farm
Patrick Stewart Pledges opening bounty for $250.00 USD
or
Patrick Stewart can procure an online server for Red out of an Atlanta, Georgia Datacenter and pay for the monthly fees. Maintenance and upkeep of this server is the responsibility of the Red Project team and access to the server will be tendered to them.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:45:07-7:00
OK, I have dropped a few things here. Please let's try and keep it a little light on the responses here and only try and deal with the bounties any other conversation should be posted back in the initial thread if you don't mind. That way everything is in one spot and easier for me to reference.
There will be more to come here as more things are being identified or should i say understood by myself. But for now I will start with these things.
Any takers, Any Contributors? Any Pledgers?
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/17:48:38-7:00
I'd suggest you a new topic for each bounty so others can add to the same bounty.
Also you need to specify exactly what you want done, and the time frame for the job.
Eg. Console equivalent in functionality to Rebol2 console
posted by: Graham 29-Sep-2014/18:05:05-7:00
$500.00 to fix the backlog of all Rebol3 bugs vs. $1000 to follow a procedure to build for emscripten, which you can already do (and I have done) in the comfort of one's own terminal?
http://chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/10719869#10719869
I'll send you my PayPal address. :-)
But before pledging amounts, I think some things need to be done:
* A framing of what the definition of a successful completion of the bounty would be.
* Realistic assessments of the time frame and difficulty to meet that goal.
* An escrowing service of some kind. This one is used by IBM and GitHub, apparently, with the game being that any time you pull money out of the system they deduct 10%. I guess you could bounty something and have the money refunded and bounty again indefinitely, and get hit just like a withdrawing developer would:
https://www.bountysource.com/faq
There may be better ones than that. We don't have a lot of experience with this, and most bounties in the past (AFAIK) have come from "known" people like Nick. So there isn't a process here yet.
If you donate the build server for Red on OS/X that would be a nice start that people could get onto right away, and automated daily builds for Red could resume for that platform. Nenad gave you his email address and if he had a login and password to a 24/7 availability machine I'm sure he or someone else could set that up.
posted by: Hostile Fork 29-Sep-2014/18:07:28-7:00
Hi Patrick. Thanks for the offer of an OSX build server for the Red project. Please order it as described in the second option of that bounty and directly contact Nenad (nr AT red-lang DOT org) to exchange access (SSH, VNC) information once the server is procured.
posted by: Andreas 29-Sep-2014/18:13:08-7:00
@Hostilefork Oh SH*T :) LOL it's that easy? I put that amount there because I think I read someplace where it was most likely harder then some of the other things. LOL
@Andreas - Please tell me what specs you need for this server.
Intel® Core™ i5-2415 2.3GHz DC 4GB DDR3 1333MHz 500GB
Intel® Core™ i7-3615 2.3GHz QC 8GB DDR3 1600MHz 1000GB
Intel® Core™ i7-3615 2.3GHz QC 16GB DDR3 1600MHz 1000GB
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/18:45:20-7:00
@Andreas
Oh, the headings on the grid are added to this one.
CPU RAM STORAGE
Intel® Core™ i5-2415 2.3GHz DC 4GB DDR3 1333MHz 500GB
Intel® Core™ i7-3615 2.3GHz QC 8GB DDR3 1600MHz 1000GB
Intel® Core™ i7-3615 2.3GHz QC 16GB DDR3 1600MHz 1000GB
And please specify internet port requirements choices are
100 Mbps or a 1000 Mbps port
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/18:55:31-7:00
@Everyone
Ok, help me out here I'm no code guru and you folks have the pulse help me define what it is your saying is needed Hostilefork.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/18:58:53-7:00
@Hostilefork
https://www.bountysource.com/
Nice platform may be just what we need
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/19:05:56-7:00
Patrick, there is, indeed, a lot of pent up passion in the community.
posted by: Gregg 29-Sep-2014/19:15:22-7:00
@Patrick: the smallest box with a 100mbps uplink will do fine. Thanks in advance.
posted by: Andreas 29-Sep-2014/19:22:55-7:00
@Andreas
Ok it's done sending information to your email now also I added an HDMI GPU enabler so you can get the best screen resolutions when accessing remotely.
The server is up an online, it is up to you and your team to configure and make sure your security needs are met if you need anything from me please contact me at the email i'm sending you now.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/19:48:12-7:00
@Patrick
I don't think it hurts to put out bounties for stuff that has been completed but not released in a bug free form. That's what the empscripten build is about.
posted by: Graham 29-Sep-2014/19:48:54-7:00
@Patrick: Thanks. I assume you sent the email to Nenad (whose contact I gave you above) and not me -- which is fine, I'm sure Nenad will be happily surprised once he comes back online :)
I'll also send you an email directly (to the email you mentioned in your original open letter), so that you can additionally forward the access info to me as well.
posted by: Andreas 29-Sep-2014/20:02:48-7:00
@Andreas
Ok, Forwarded the access info.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/20:24:59-7:00
@Patrick: Thanks, got it.
posted by: Andreas 29-Sep-2014/20:35:44-7:00
This is exciting. I'm currently selling a property, and I would like to take part in the bounty offerings when that sale is completed (within approximately 1 month).
It should be clear that bounty offerings are simply requests for work to be performed, with a suggestion as to the recommended value of the completed work. They don't represent any sort of contractual obligation until the details of some sort of binding contract have been agreed upon by any of the parties involved. I'm not a lawyer, but something of that sort should probably be said here.
posted by: Nick 29-Sep-2014/20:58:50-7:00
Patrick,
When it comes to the Emscripten build, I'd recommend that a specific bounty be offered for a port of the View engine and R3-GUI so that whole system can be used in some browser based renderer (perhaps WebGL). The end result should be the ability to run complete R3 apps, with R3-GUI layouts, in the mainstream browsers (not just Core scripts).
posted by: Nick 29-Sep-2014/21:07:51-7:00
@Nick Ok i see i will fix that
@Hostilfork I am setting the stage for us to use bountysource i think it will be a good place to do this in a controlled way. One thing about using this is it seems to actually attach to your issue tracker and allows bounties to be posted on a per issue basis which i think is cool because it gives us that plan sort of because you can see what needs to happen.
@Graham agreed seems there are some things that are done that have not been put out there yet.
posted by: Patrick Stewart 29-Sep-2014/21:27:23-7:00
@Patrick
Yes, there has been absolutely no incentive to release things or finish things that are mostly done. I'm in that position too with most of my rebol3 projects.
People have worked many long hours with no recognition for that. If you can help, with bounties, then I'm sure people sitting on what they have might just get around to releasing.
As for the Emscripten build, I'd suggest that as two different bounties. One to get a working core interpreter up which is what most of us want so we can evangelise Rebol. And another bounty for the sky's the limit ... Rebol/view port. Which seems to be what Nick wants.
posted by: Graham 29-Sep-2014/22:08:59-7:00
If Carl would release and Emscripten compiled R2, I'd pay for that.
posted by: Nick 29-Sep-2014/23:05:49-7:00
Now that the flurry has died down a bit, I'll link to this xkcd comic:
http://xkcd.com/1425/
As it says: "In CS, it can be hard to explain the difference between the easy and the virtually impossible."
So some of the problem is with that. I emailed Patrick a few thoughts on Tuesday, but haven't heard a response. What I encouraged was more of an "ask not what you can do for Rebol/Red, but what Rebol/Red can DO FOR YOU."
I can imagine it may seem a quick path to disappointment if no one is receptive to a willingness to put money on the table. But the problem is in that xkcd communication. I suggested in my mail that the best place to start for Patrick would be to try using Rebol for his next tasks, ask StackOverflow questions when stuck, and decide what features *he* would like to see enhanced for his usage.
We know our own desires best. Mine are to fix core language design issues and lexical problems. For instance: I do not think `(a)/b/c` should load as the three symbol sequence `(a) /b /c` while `a/(b)/c` loads as the one symbol path with three components `a/(b)/c`. Detailed studies have been done on issues like this:
http://curecode.org/rebol3/ticket.rsp?id=2094
Across the board we need to review cross-cutting issues and fix the ones that don't work. Such as the Rebol3 decision to not allow you to create an ANY-WORD! with any string name it wants. The inability to do so handcuffs dialect designers; if they want some symbolic word type to add meaning to a term, they need to be able to add that meaning if the term is coming from another language source that may not *always* obey Rebol's LOAD rules...even if they *usually* do. The exceptions can be LOADed and MOLDed with "construction syntax".
I want a native and performant COMBINE implementation, and PRINT [...] defined as WRITE STDOUT COMBINE/WITH [... NEWLINE] SPACE, with a PRINT/ONLY to suppress the newline. It's so much better, and I'm afraid that if people don't get experience with it then Nenad won't realize why IF not requiring blocks on the terms and IF/ONLY suppressing evaluation for blocks is so cool.
The sooner we get experience with changes the sooner there is data. That's my priority. And I think a bounty works best if someone bounties their own priorities...because you have a chance at defining successful completion of the task.
posted by: Hostile Fork 3-Oct-2014/11:05:31-7:00
I agree that being need driven is good. Function design experiments, like your PRINT, above, are perfect REBOL mezz projects that don't require bounties. Design is hard, and often frustrating when there is no easy answer or clear winning proposal. Deeper language design issues are tougher. You've done a great job of bringing a lot of these up and tracking them on CC, which I for one really appreciate.
There are many facets, and no silver bullet.
I hope my suggestions help Patrick as well. It's hard to walk in and get inundated with information. Heck, just learning REBOL can overload your brain for a while. :)
posted by: Gregg Irwin 3-Oct-2014/14:36:20-7:00
I also think it will be great to get some R3 momentum going, which should not detract from Red, but help it. R3 is more mature, and design questions addressed there will often apply to Red, in addition to fostering compatibility between the two.
And...we gotta get organized.
posted by: Gregg Irwin 3-Oct-2014/14:43:09-7:00
I'm ok to put a little bit of money on the table and if others do the same, it can be something. BUT we seems to have different priorities and I guess we won't be able to raise enough money to satisfy all.
I agree that working on R3 doesn't mean to leave Red. Of course not!
Red and R3 will overlap, but they also are complementary. And, what to choose to start a project as of now? Red or R3?
For R3 I'm planning to contribute (for free) by submitting some tests and some docs. I'm also currently making an evaluation for my needs.
posted by: GregP 3-Oct-2014/14:52:55-7:00
Patick,
Andreas should be able to help get an Emscripten port of Core completed. And Cypher has expressed an interest in completing the Emscripten View port. He is, however, too busy to work on it for the next 1-2 months.
Sending them a private message in AltMe may be worth a few moments of your time. Getting a better sense of their available time and interest is certainly worthwhile, and could definitely save a lot of wasted work and money in development of a JavaScript port.
posted by: Nick 3-Oct-2014/18:17:38-7:00
@ Nick Ok I will reach out to them
posted by: Patrick Stewart 3-Oct-2014/23:40:45-7:00
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